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12/31/2015 5:01 PM
Heating your shelter is hard to do without rethinking your whole shelter plan. I experimented with a octagonal e blanket shelter with an open center with a fire in the middle. There were eight facets, four of which someone could sleep under. I thought traditional E blanket shelters with the E blanket pitched to your back and overheard with a fire with reflector in front just didn’t make sense to me as the fire reflector served no other purpose but to reflect. In said E blanket shelter one would be ensconced three hundred and sixty degrees by mylar heat reflective sheeting, obviating the need for aforementioned fire reflector. The top of the shelter is open, and, in theory the fire and smoke would not be influenced by the wind so the smoke should go straight up and out of the shelter. Hard to explain without drawing it. It was also quite wind resistant as well. But again we are back to collecting wood and building a fire every night. That being said it should be far more fuel efficient as the whole shelter works to reflect radiated heat down on the occupants. The only place the radiation can escape is straight up through a hole roughly the size of an E blanket.

Heating a tent just seems impossible to me without a stove and jack.

Imagine this shelter only made out of five fifty cord and E blankets. No debris is added to the side as displayed in this video.

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12/31/2015 6:41 PM

First...Happy new Year to all of the HPG Forum folks out there!  

I ended up revisiting something I mentioned earlier in this thread, and have used in the mountains years ago.  So, instead of trying to go somewhere for festivities...which is really out of the question because the roads are already insane around here....I decided to fab up a DIY hanging stove system.  Alpinists and big-wall climbers have been using these for decades, so I haven't done anything "new"...just dusting off an old technique for a new application.  Now before someone warns about carbon monoxide....I have used a system like this several times inside a shelter long ago...and I'm still alive.  The key is to have LOTS of ventilation and to be extra mindful of flame.  Really no different than cooking anywhere.  Since I intend to use this in my Six Moon Designs Lunar Solo, which has a nice ridge vent, low vents for cross-flow, and is a single wall, I feel comfortable that I can operate this system inside the tent as a heat source for short periods to raise the tent's ambient temperature.  Using this system inconjunction with a candle lantern should produce some decent residual heat inside a small tent for a few hours.  I plan to test this hanging stove out in my Lunar Solo soon.

It was very easy to build.  For the stove, I used my old MSR Superfly.  Nice and light, and pretty efficient with fuel.  To build the hanging system, all I needed were 4 Everbuilt Stainless Steel Gate Latch Cables, a NiteIZe Infini-Key keychain, a small stainless S-biner (all of these purchased at Home Depot), and an old MSR stainless steel bowl that I already had in with my gear boxes.  The cables are about 12.5" long....so a good length for creating stand-off from any tent fabric.  I will come up with a way to adjust the height of the top cable at some point, in order to fine-tune the length.  I used the old MSR bowl because it had high sides, and was big enough in diameter to set my 30 oz Solo Stove pot inside and have enough room for heat to travel along the sides of the pot.  I drilled a 1/2" hole in the center of the bowl to be able to fit the stove throat through.  All I had to do was unscrew the burner top from the stove, insert the throat through the hole, and then reattach the burner...easy day.  I then measured around the circumference of the bowl...18".  I then drilled a small hole every 6" in order to create a stabilized platform to hang.  It turned out pretty well and only took about a half hour to build!  I brought 30 oz of water to a full boil in less than 6 minutes.  I think this little system will work well in my small shelter.  Take a gander at the photos...any questions or comments are welcome, as always!  I also plan to bring this out to the Winter Skills Gathering and test it in true winter conditions.


Ken sends.

Edit: Also...it is very easy to take apart and store in a pack.

An appropriate size hole to allow the burner of the stove to be fixed inside the bowl is really the key.  Keep all of your controls outside the bowl.

The entire system.  I still need to figure out a good way to make the height adjustable, but I've already got a good plan on how to do this.  

Going at full power.  The bowl directs the heat up alongside the pot pretty well.

Got the water to a nice boil in less than 6 minutes....not bad at all.

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1/1/2016 9:36 AM

Here are a few more pics of my DIY Hanging Stove.  In the bag with a 4 oz MSR Isopro canister, it weighs 17.6 oz.  That's acceptable to me.  Adding a second 4 oz canister or going to a large canister would add a bit more weight, but at the end of the day, not too bad.  Or, I could carry a 6 oz MSR Heat Exchanger to wrap around the cooking pot, which will greatly increase fuel efficiency, and possibly even prevent me having to carry a second canister on a longer trip.  Another thing I would do to improve efficiency with this system would be to duct tape a small hand warmer packet to the concave portion of the canister, to help warm it and improve flow of the fuel.  This is only really needed in very cold weather.  Again...care must be taken to not overheat the canister.

It remains to be definitively determined, but I feel confident that a system like this (carefully and safely used in a well ventilated tent), will produce some overall warmth in a small shelter.  When I think about how well the HPG Shepherd Stove does for heating my SO-6 Tipi, it stands to reason that a system like this could do the same in a 1-2 man tent.  I toyed around with the idea that maybe I could make a hanging system for my Solo Stove, but I decided that this was actually not a good idea.  An actual wood fire in a hanging system is not easily controlled and the likelihood of a disaster is too great in my mind.

I added some holes in the bowl.  This serves two functions...one is to allow heat to vent, and the other is to lighten the package.  I'm not 100% certain that I actually needed to drill vent holes from a safety perspective, but every other hanging stove system I've seen and used that is similar to this one has holes in the bowl, so I thought I had better follow suit.

Ready to go into the bag.

 All packed up and ready to go.

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1/1/2016 1:21 PM

I sat for a while this morning and thought about whether I could modify my Solo Stove into a hanging system and decided to give it a try.  I still think that burning wood in this particular stove inside a tent would be a bad idea, because open flame from a wood fire in a tent would be too difficult to control, and also there is a good chance that an ember from the wood could easily pop out and burn the tent.  That said....using the Solo Stove with an alcohol burner (once again, taking great care to have good ventilation) could in fact be done.  

So once again, I got out my drill and went to work.  I counted the number of interior holes near the top of the Solo Stove to use as a gauge for where I wanted to drill for attaching three more cables.  Once I determined that, I drilled three small holes near the lip of the stove.  This allowed me to attach three more stainless steel gate latch cables, exactly like the ones I used for building the previous hanging system (I had four cables and some S-biners left over from my Home Depot purchases).  Because the little stainless cables have an integral flat surfaced clip on the ends, they do not interfere with the cooking surface attachment for the Solo Stove.  I then added a small S-biner to bring all three cables into a center point.  a fourth cable and one more S-biner were added to allow the system to hang from the tent roof.  The result?  Super easy to put together.  The entire hanging system (Solo Stove, cables, 2 x small S-biners, and the empty alcohol burner) weighs a mere 14.4 ounces.

Definitely lighter than the Superfly hanging system, but....it is less efficient as a cooking stove.  That was expected.  However, there are some benefits to this:

1) Carrying my Solo Stove allows me the versatility to use found wood and cook with it outside the tent.  

2) Carrying one or two small bottles of alcohol for fuel is less bulky than the MSR Isopro canisters, and probably lighter weight too.

3) Running the alcohol burner inside the Solo Stove will provide a medium, steady heat source, raising interior temps of my small tent.

One downside....since alcohol is a liquid fuel, if one isn't careful, it could spill onto fabrics in the tent and ignite.  The fix for this is just to be careful, which must be done anyway...even when using these outside.  Also, some alcohol-based fuel sources can put off harmful toxins....HEET comes to mind, because certain chemical additives are included in HEET...ones you definitely wouldn't want to inhale.  I most often use rubbing alcohol.  I was lucky enough to find 96% strength at an InkaFarma pharmacy in Peru.  It's tough to get that stength here in the US, but denatured alcohol (available at any hardware store) works well, too.

During a test burn of the system today, I once again filled my cook pot with 30 oz of water and put it on the clock.  At 6 minutes, I had some bubbles present in the pot and I could hear the water agitating as it heated.  However, although the water was warm and could probably have been used for hydrating a meal, it likely wasn't hot enough for a good cup of coffee just yet.  At 12 minutes...lots of bubbles and essentially boiling, but not a true rolling boil.  At this point, I decided to attach my MSR Heat Exchanger to it.  I carefully positioned it to bridge between the stove's cooking surface and the bottom of the pot.  I did this to act as a wind screen and also to direct more heat to the pot.  There was a good breeze going outside, so this probably helped.  However, if this system were being used inside my tent, maybe I wouldn't need the heat exchanger...I'll know once I test it inside the Lunar Solo.  I'll probably test it without the heat exchanger first, and, and then try it again with the heat exchanger.  At approximately 17 minutes and 40 seconds, the pot was well and truly boiling....to the point where water was bubbling over.  

To control the stove once the desired water temp is achieved, I now had to carefully lift the pot with one hand and place the cap over the alcohol burner, in order to snuff out the flame.  Not too hard of a task...but care must be taken to not spill water or let the flame do something it shouldn't.  Really, not too much different than managing a Shepherd Stove in a tipi.

So, here are some photos of the Solo Stove hanging system.  This will be another version I will test inside my Lunar Solo tent.  

The entire hanging system for the Solo Stove....the four cables and 2 S-biners add mere ounces.

Cable attachment points on the stove.  Just three small holes in the lip.

MSR Heat Exchanger attached at 12 minutes. 

When it was time to remove the pot and snuff out the burner, I just slid the heat exchanger down and off the bottom and carefully lifted the pot and then placed the cap on the burner.  Now that the water was boiling, I needed to be vigilant to ensure I didn't let water spill out all over while accomplishing these steps.  One way to mitigate this is by not filling the pot as high as I did.  30 ounces is pretty near the rim in this pot.

Cap in place on the burner.  Flame is out.

The InkaFarma 96% Rubbing Alcohol I used as fuel for the test.  Not sure, but denatured alcohol might be more efficient as a fuel.  I'll need to try that out next time.

Hope this serves to help other HPG Forum folks figure out their own system for small shelter heat sources!  My modifications cost very little money, and this is a very easy modification that will add versatility.  Happy New Year folks!


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1/2/2016 5:41 AM
Good stuff Ken. Thank you for sharing.
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1/2/2016 5:55 AM

Last night I told my wife I was thinking about heat options for backpacking in the winter and how I was thinking about buying an MSR Twin Sisters Tarp Shelter and figuring out a medium size stove I could use inside of it. My wife, without even a pause, asked me why I spend so much money on my clothing layering system that I brag so much about to my brother if I need a stove now :) 

She also said no fat bike if I am buying all this other stuff. I love my wife!!!!!!!

Ken your the man and I like how you are constantly thinking of ways to better your kit not only for your own use but more importantly for all others as well. 

Edit: I think I agree with your concern about coals or embers falling out but with a floor less shelter, especially if you ensure your venting it enough, this may give some heat that may adjust your comfort during the night. I may run this to ground in a few weeks during my next outing or maybe even set it up in the backyard for a night. thanks again Ken.

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1/2/2016 7:48 AM
Konaboy1972 wrote:

Last night I told my wife I was thinking about heat options for backpacking in the winter and how I was thinking about buying an MSR Twin Sisters Tarp Shelter and figuring out a medium size stove I could use inside of it. My wife, without even a pause, asked me why I spend so much money on my clothing layering system that I brag so much about to my brother if I need a stove now :) 

She also said no fat bike if I am buying all this other stuff. I love my wife!!!!!!!

Ken your the man and I like how you are constantly thinking of ways to better your kit not only for your own use but more importantly for all others as well. 

Edit: I think I agree with your concern about coals or embers falling out but with a floor less shelter, especially if you ensure your venting it enough, this may give some heat that may adjust your comfort during the night. I may run this to ground in a few weeks during my next outing or maybe even set it up in the backyard for a night. thanks again Ken.

Collin and Kona....glad to help! Kona...a floorless shelter is definitely less of a concern for an open fire system...it is an option there. That said, if you do set up some type of wood-fueled fire under your tarp, then may I suggest also fashioning a stove pipe for it (or purchasing a small 3" diameter one). One of my other tents can be pitched fly only as a floorless...my Exped Sirius Extreme. For that one, I bought a stove jack for it and sewed it in, then seam-sealed it. The reason I think you would need a stove pipe is that if you don't the smoke from that fire is just going to fill your shelter. 

Even when I run my Shepherd Stove in my SO-6 Tipi, if there is pitchy wood in the stove and maybe the flue (damper) is closed a bit too much....significant smoke stays in the tent until it is opened more and the stove draws enough air to expel the smoke out through the stove pipe. Not sure what your tarp configuation looks likes done whether it is pitched with the edges close to ground level, but I would think maybe you would at least want an angled stove pipe to run outside of the shelter to prevent smoke build up inside. What type of wood fueled stove would you use and how high would the ceiling of your tarp be? Those are factors, too. 

 If you search around here on the Forum, you'll find threads where I posted photos of the stove Jack I retrofitted to my Exped, and also ones of my DIY wood stove...a smaller one I built, generally following the instructions Evan & Scot posted in the Free Resources drop downabove as a "how-to". The Hill bros and others here on the Forum may chime in with their own thoughts on wood fueled stoves in a shelter, too. 

 I'd hate for you to end sucking on a bunch of smoke inside your tarp shelter if you can prevent that. The hanging systems I posted are with the intent of using a really small tent with a floor, but it has a big ridge vent directly above where I would hang the stove. If I hung the Solo Stove with wood as the fuel, with a full load in it to boil water, there would be enough flame and embers coming out that I would be dangerously close to catching the tent on fire. 

Do you think there's a good way for you to set your stove under your tarp and not have too much smoke and embers floating around? I reckon worth a try...but be careful and ready to pull the stove outside the tent at the first sign of trouble. I'd want to test something like that first under a cheap tarp (maybe a Walmart utility tarp) before I trusted a wood fueled system under an expensive one.

 EDIT: Konaboy...I just looked up images of that MSR Twin Sisters....nice looking shelter.  For one like that, I would definitely want to install a stove jack and have a stove pipe running from any wood-fueled stove in there.  The edges of that shelter go all the way to the ground, and it doesn't appear to have any type of ridge vent in it.

Here's a photo of the small wood stove I built, one which would work great under that Twin Sisters.

And here are a couple photos of the stove jack I installed in my Exped tent, with the DIY stove inside.

I would think that in a shelter like that Twin Sisters, you'd want something like what I've got in these photos.  What kind of stove are you thinking of using under your tarp?

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1/3/2016 2:41 AM

Thanks Ken for all the great info. Before I went to sleep last night I did an experiment using a Bush Craft USA MEST 5"x7" tap set up a frame with para cord as a ridge line and 3 guidelines on each side just about a foot off the ground. That is my normal tarp setup then I usually have my OR helium bivy sack in there. I setup my Vertex outdoor ultralight wood burning stove in one of the openings (after Jerry rigging a raised platform) and made a fire reflector directly behind it with 3" logs ranging from 3' to 4' long and made the reflector 3' high. The weather was 28 degrees ( windchill around 17) with a 13 to 19 mph wind. I did my best to set up the tarp to try and use some of that wind to remove the smoke from the stove. I normally would always set up with as little to no wind hitting me so this was a first for sure. The stove did supply a little heat but getting the smoke to clear out did not go to well. I found myself fanning the air with a piece of cardboard I had cut down. I am 99% sure that I would only use a set up like that in an emergency situation only and even then if it were a clear night with no snow I would rather sit out by a fire all night and get real warmth. The stove is so small that I would be adding fuel every 15 minutes so forget getting any sleep. I came into the house after that experiment and did two things. I went online and bought that MSR Twin Sisters tarp shelter I have been looking at for a few years now and also bought a stove jack from seek outside. Even though the stove jack install seems pretty straight forward I am nervous about sewing something to a new tent so I am going to ask a friend to do it who has many hours behind a sewing machine doing parachute repairs for work (side note he has even made me sand bag covers for crossfit workouts). As for a stove I am not even there yet and have no idea where to start. I guess I have a lot of research in front of me to figure out what size I will need to take care of heating my new tents footprint. For now I am going to borrow my farther in laws ti goat wifi stove since its the only one I have access to and play around with it to lock in the setup at an upcoming winter survival school at work that I am doing safety supervisor for. As long as that goes well I am going to beg him again to use it on a 2 day trip at the end of January snowshoe backpacking a section of the North County Trail just north of me in the Upper Peninsular of MI. Shit I may be able to bring my 8 year old son with me if this hot tent camping works out for me. That would be awesome especially since he always has to stop backpacking with me once the weather changes due to a very protective mother :)

DKC, I am pretty close to being right there with your comment of "Heating a tent just seems impossible to me without a stove and jack". Don't get me wrong I know a lot of people that have had good luck with candles and other light weight heat sources in snow shelters but I think I am really getting on board with the idea of being able to dry out boots, gear and layering system every night because then I can extend my winter trips out a bit. Especially if these stoves really only take a few minutes to setup once you have that all dialed in. I always thought that breaking down camp and setting it back up every night should be fast and easy after hiking all day but maybe this hot tent camping can be just that. I guess I will see true times and ease of setup and break down in a few weeks. Thanks agin to y'all for the great information that is helping this coon ass from Louisiana fine tune his winter camping loadout. Who knows maybe I will torture myself with the added gear weight this spring and use this setup for fast packing. I do like to embrace the suck!!!!!

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1/4/2016 8:03 AM
My issue is not with the stove itself, although I do have issue with most on the market, but rather with the amount of energy expended to feed it. If you are in a small shelter, and only going a single evening and morning burn that is one thing. Having it burning for several hours, or even overnight is an entirely different level of work. I would guesstimate that for the last winter gathering we had darn near 7 or 8 man hours in getting enough wood for the stove in the main tent, and four of those man hours were during the use of a chainsaw to buck up logs. If we hadn't had the chainsaw then a 1/1 prep/burn ratio wouldn't surprise me. Obviously, a smaller shelter and smaller stove will require less wood, but as Evan pointed out if you go to small you are limited to twigs and crap like that. My interest, when I started this thread, was to find a more energy efficient alternative. Will a candle lantern work as well as a stove, of course not, but will it take the edge off and provide some warmth and minimal energy output cost for the 3-4 hours of dark before sleep time? I just don't know. Alpndrms hanging stove certainly is one solution, but my suspicion is that it is still not a multi-hour thing given fuel restrictions. The terra cotta idea has me thinking a bit. I wonder if something similar couldn't be done with foil or maybe metal panels.

Co-Owner Hill People Gear "If anything goes wrong it will be a fight to the end, if your training is good enough, survival is there; if not nature claims its foreit." - Dougal Haston
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1/4/2016 9:19 AM

The problem you just ID'd, Scot, is thermal mass. Tents aren't well insulated, so there's no mass there to keep heat in, or cold out. Yes, it's better than nothing, but largely the shelter is there to block wind and precip; not to maintain temperature. Also, you're talking about packing it in and out, so you're looking at something that has to be light enough to be carried and pack down into a decent shape/size for transport. Those two things work against the concept of thermal mass, which is how a home-heating stove works.

 This is where the "stack boilers" concept comes in; the water boilers that go on top of the stove and around the pipe.  The water boils and then "holds" heat that is radiated back out into the shelter for longer than the thin bodied stove would otherwise do so.  This is also a nice way to get hot/boiling water for all things such does for you in a backcountry setting, but it is another something that needs attention and feeding as you don't want to let all the water boil off.  It also adds to condensation on the inside of the shelter, which can be a problem.

About the only other way I could see to overcome those problems is akin to the way that many home woodstoves do so. In home stoves, fire brick are used to insulate the sidewalls of the stoves themselves and to provide a heat sink that holds and then radiates out the heat generated from the burn. This keeps the fire away from the thinner walls of the stove (making it last longer) and evens out the heat distribution over longer periods of time than would just the stove itself without the brick. In a pack/camping stove, perhaps ceramic plates that are light enough and compact enough to be carried (trauma plates, of a sort, but tolerant of extreme heat without cracking or breaking) that could be used to line the inside of the stove. You'd lose internal combustion capacity of the stove due to the insertion of the plates, but you'd gain significantly in the heat dissipation over time due to the thermal mass of the plates.

Otherwise, I think you're up against various laws of thermodynamics. When you figure out how to get around those, and if anyone could the Hill Brothers might be the ones to consider, fill us all in - AFTER you patent the concept.
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1/4/2016 8:49 PM

Your hanging stove got me thinking about canisters and low temps. The canisters have a mix of propane and mostly butane. My unfortunate experience has been that at minus 10 degrees below freezing only the small percentage of propane in the canister will burn. While it seems a little sketchy, perhaps hanging a candle lantern a respectable distance below the hanging stove would be a more elegant solution than holding up a rapidly cooling bowl of piss for canister preheating purposes. 

Scot,  For  a pack-able light weight stove, it seems like improving the air tightness would be the way to improve efficiency with out  adding mass.   Calvin Rustrum, had an illustration in one of his books  showing  an inlet with damper mounted in the stove pipe  above the stove it self.  As  I recall, the idea   was to keep enough draw in the chimney to keep the tent from smoking up with a fully packed and damped down  stove. I gave it a try with a larger box stove but after waking up with a head ache 2 mornings in a row stopped using it.   However,  I was able  to have coals left in the morning, which is very nice for an easy morning fire.

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1/5/2016 4:30 AM

Bark-eater....I use a different method for warming the fuel canister in very cold weather.  A neoprene cozy, and the next level is adding a hand warmer packet to the bottom concave portion of the canister.  Another method I've used years ago involves hammering 1/2" copper tubing flat and coiling it around the canister, with the other end positioned over the burner...creating a heat exchanger.  This worked in cold temps for non-hanging systems.  You just need to be vigilant to not let the canister get too hot.

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1/5/2016 6:21 PM
An Origo Heat Pal would take the edge off the cold with the least amount of futzing around. I've used the alcohol stove part of the heater in a DIY melt-snow-for-dogs setup. If you haven't seen one, think of a gigantic alcohol stove.
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1/6/2016 3:59 PM
Forager got me to thinking about thermal mass. Maybe the most energy efficient way overall is an insulated tent liner. Right now, my mountain serape is always used as an overbag. It works great and seems to provide a situation where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Often parts of me aren't even in the sleeping bag, they're just in the overbag. What if instead I used the MS over the top of the tent or similar? I'm giving up overall heat because I'm using body heat to heat a larger space, but that larger space is warmer and large enough to do more than lie in a sleeping bag.

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1/6/2016 5:36 PM
I like the mountain serape idea Evan but it would kind of depend upon what size tent you have and how much dead space you need to heat up right? Thinking outside the box is always a good thing in my opinion.
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1/6/2016 8:26 PM

The set up I use is a BD mega light and a tigoat 12in stove with custom carbon fiber stakes and poles. can be set up in less than 15 min and is 3lbs 8oz. I use it in a golite cave 2 tarp also. Here it is in action https://youtu.be/kHfpF-uZsS4

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1/6/2016 10:13 PM
Reflectix is my idea for shelter insulation.  That is what they use for yurts.  That and a Ti "Rocket Stove" (gassifier). 
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1/7/2016 12:54 PM
There is nothing incremental about using reflectix. In my 8-man tipi w/ a stove, the difference between inside and outside temperature nearly doubled. Went from 40*F difference to 70*F difference.

I made a bimini cover for my outrigger canoe out of 1.3 oz "heat and solar reflective" ripstop. I don't see it on Seattle Fabrics anymore. I doubt it is as reflective as reflectix but it makes one heck of a sun shade so it is doing something. Maybe that sort of material on the inside of a serape would reflect some IR and be as good or better than reflectix. I bet the R-factor of a serape would be higher than the bubble wrap part of Reflectix.
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1/7/2016 1:01 PM
Along these lines ... I vaguely remembered that Mr. Bushcraft had experimented with reflective emergency blankets but I couldn't remember what he found out, but I found his words in a google search:

"I thought I'd try the space blanket as a liner and it was sweet! It's reflective surface worked like a convection oven and kept condensation off my gear. The temp difference from my side and dp's side was really amazing - I was dying on my side and he was wearing a down jacket to stay warm on the other.

Patrick, if you are listening, a reflective mylar tipi liner for winter use would be truly awesome - lightweight and heat reflective."
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1/7/2016 1:34 PM

huskyrunnr...I'm wondering if you couldn't just use a couple SOL thermal reflective blankets (like those from Adventure Medical Kits) and stitch them together to fabricate a liner.  I also have a tarp / thermal blanket / expedient shelter I picked up at the Overland Expo...the Force Protector Gear Thermashield....which could also be fashioned as a liner or external layer on a small shelter.  That said, the SOL blankets are definitely lighter.  Either one would ward off condensation and insulate the shelter better.  If you use something like this over or under a single wall shelter, you're essentially turning it into a double wall, right?  This is right in line with what Evan has mentioned previously using a Mountain Serape as a liner or as an external "shell" on a small tent.  Those of us that have Mountain Serapes pretty much carry them on every trip anyway...if the environment warrants it...might as well use it in that function.  I can't remember the last time I went out on a trip and didn't have a Mountain Serape with me.

Worth some thought....this is an interesting "rabbit hole" for this discussion.  Thanks for bringing this up!

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