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11/28/2015 8:11 PM
 

I wanted to begin a discussion to determine what folks think is doable for extended, self-sustained winter trips using the Ute, plus any add-ons such as a docked pocket like the Highlander, Tara, Pals, or the new Conner. Also, other things are in play like running a stuffsack on top and/or bottom, any kind top lid pouch (like a converted butt pack), even side pouches. 

To kind of frame things, let's say general non-technical winter backpacking/snowshoeing, temps in the teens to single digits at night with a generous amount of snow. No pulks...just the Ute plus any feasible attachments.

If you kind of mentally go through all of the things you think you would need for a semi-comfortable trip, what would your load-out be and how long would you be able to go and still live decently in the backcountry? Note: not a survival exercise...let's concentrate on what it would look like for an extended backpack trip.

So far, I've lived out of my Ute with a docked Highlander for 3 days and 2 nights...that was easy to pack for, especially since it was a warm weather trip. That one doesn't count for this discussion. For every other winter trip so far (like the Winter Gatherings) I pulled a pulk on my skis. Those trips can't count either, because I had the benefit of my pulk.

All of that said, I personally feel confident that I could go for about 10 days with my Ute in the winter, using my Highlander as a back pocket compression panel, two side pouches (medium SKD BUPs), and the big HPG stuffsack on top. I would carry a +25 degree Feathered Friends Winter Wren Nano, Mountain Serape, and NeoAir X-Therm Max sleeping pad for my sleep system, a light ground tarp, Wild Things Primaloft booties, a Patagonia R-1 top, Wild Things Primaloft pants and jacket, a couple spare pair of socks, HPG Shepherd Stove, Exped Sirius Extreme 2 man tent (modified with a stove jack), freeze dried meals, energy / power bars, and some odds and ends for comfort and of course things like an IFAK, etc. Everything else would be on my body...parka, etc. 10 days seems reasonable to me for a self-sustaining winter trip out of my Ute plus attachments. I'd also definitely have trekking poles, a snow shovel, an axe, small folding saw, my pistol, and maybe a rifle.

I am kind of basing things off of extended trips living out of my old-school Lowe Alpine Vector pack that was issued to me back in the Army days. That pack isn't an awful lot bigger than the Ute, and we used to live out of those packs for up to 14 days....which also involved carrying extra team and mission gear. That's how I figure I'd be good to go for about 10 days at a pop.

So, I thought this might be a good thread to generate some thought and discussion since winter is just around the corner (it has already shown up in some states). This might serve to help Forum members evaluate what you would want to carry versus what you would need to carry for an extended winter trip.


Now it's your turn! I think we can all learn from this!
Cheers!
Ken

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11/29/2015 6:51 AM
 
First thing that comes to mind is, what dose a 20lb grub bag look like and how dose it ride in the Ute with the rest of the support gear.
 
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11/29/2015 8:25 AM
 
bark-eater wrote:
First thing that comes to mind is, what dose a 20lb grub bag look like and how dose it ride in the Ute with the rest of the support gear.

Not sure if it would need to be 20 lbs.....but I reckon it could easily turn out to be something that heavy.  I suppose a lot depends on the choice of meals and how much "comfort food" is decided upon.  I think the overall weight for food carried can be pared down significantly by relying on things like energy / power bar type things for lunches, dry oatmeal in ziplocks for breakfasts, and other similar space / weight savers.  Things like Probars or energy chomps can be carried in pouches on the Prairie Belt or in parka pockets pretty easily....maybe all of the "lunch and trail snack" items could be carried this way, which for me then leaves 10 day's worth of the oatmeal, coffee, and main dinner meals to carry in the pack.  If add-on pouches are used on the sides of the Ute (like tall sustainment pouches or similar), then quite a bit of food packets could be kept in there...or devote those to things like spare socks, long johns, etc.  Then use the main packbag for carrying the heavier food packets along with bulky items.  That seems doable.  

Years ago for extended trips out of one backpack, it was MREs or LRRP rations...but those were broken down as small as possible in order to save weight and bulk.  In fact, the LRRP rations were designed so that one would last a guy pretty much all day long...very calorie rich.  That also meant removing all of the cardboard and extraneous stuff like taking just the main meal packets, only taking one spoon and reusing that one, etc.  I personally would always squirrel away the different meals into deadspace spots in the pack, or even roll some of them in with my sleeping bag or my tent in order to save space, as opposed to a single food bag.  

For instance, in a pack such as the Ute, several freeze dried backpack meals could be slipped into the slot with the framesheet because they're fairly flat, instead of taking up space in the main packbag.  Another option might be to stack main meals together and bind them with a strip of 100 mph tape, inside a stuffsack, and then strap those to the bottom of the Ute....making a package of about 4" thick maximum, in order to not have things underneath too bulky.  However, I supppose that if such a trip were in bear country, then all of that food would need to be hung in a bear bag at night....but that could be done using the stuff sack from something else and some cordage.

If this thread gets deep enough, and if I can devote some time to it, I might just compile everything I'd take with me on such a trip and then load it into and on my Ute, including water and what I would wear on my body, just to see.  I've done a test winter load-out in the past with my Ute, with photos I've posted.  Certainly, in order to pack the Ute well for an extended trip, significant thought and planning is involved so that it doesn't turn into a "gypsy ruck" and then carries horribly because it wasn't trimmed out and packed with good weight distribution and proper center of gravity in mind.

I'll also add that I would likely carry a purification pump (First Need XLE Elite) for water resupply during such a trip, in addition to melting snow, and one small pot for cooking and brewing coffee to the list in the original post.  Plus, in my mind's eye for this thread, I envision such a trip taking place in forested land...coniferous and deciduous mix...with plenty of standing dead and deadfall for fuel.  Maybe the First Need could actually stay at home, as long as boiling water over a fire is practical.

This whole thread ties directly into the HPG Equipage 3.0 Sustainment page.  I think it's really good to deep dive into this subject from time to time, especially since winter trips always end up being more clothing and gear intensive.


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11/29/2015 9:06 AM
 

Scot, Evan, or Nick...please relocate this thread under the Equipage 3.0 section.  I realized after writing it that it most likely belongs in there.  Thanks!


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11/29/2015 10:55 AM
 
Yes, winter is here already - it was minus 2 when I took the pickup in to have the tires rotated the other morning.

"Wild Things Primaloft booties, a Patagonia R-1 top" Yes, I have these and they both would make it in my pack. I still use the LRRP rations. Freeze Dry Guy usually buys the over runs and sells them. I would take some Quinoa, coconut oil (although you'd have to cut it in those temps), olive oil and some heavy duty tin foil. The latter two especially for cooking any wild meat one was fortunate enough to obtain.

I thought I was the only one here old enough to remember Vector Pack Systems :) The Lowe brothers had both been SF IIRC. I'm sure they kept Vector separate from Lowe Alpine Systems so as not to alienate the back packing / climbing crowd. Vector had some good equipment (for the time) oriented towards hunters and military. Once that was purchased by Gregory those items disappeared from the civilian market.
 
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11/29/2015 11:12 AM
 

I don't think any of the Lowes...the brothers Greg (founder of Lowe Alpine) and Jeff, and their cousin George Lowe III were SF guys.  Greg, with input from Jeff, actually developed the Vector packs for Special Forces, beginning with the Gen 1 model, which had a climbing / rappel harness in the hip belt.  Later, they came out with a heavier duty model, which was OD Cordura with a brown Cordura bottom.  I had both issued at different points in my SF career.  In fact, two years ago I donated my old Gen 1 Vector (Got to keep it because Group was throwing them away!) to the 10th Special Forces Group Museum, which is now on Fort Carson at the 10th Group compound.  I've seen photos and stuff written that stated these packs were also used a good bit by UK mountain-oriented units.  That stands to reason, as that for a while Lowe Alpine Vector Systems did some of its manufacturing in Ireland.  The Gen 1 I had was made in Ireland.

A long time ago, an old Mountain ODA teammate and I attended a lecture and slide show by Jeff Lowe at the Denver EMS store.  After it was over, I shook hands with Jeff and also let him know that a few of us on the team were still carrying the Gen 1 Vector.  This was around the '95 or '96 timeframe, if I remember right...shortly after he wrote his Ice World book.  He was impressed that any of those packs were still around and in use!  

I kind of miss that pack nowadays.  The closest thing I have to that size pack now, aside from my Ute (which is smaller), are my Wild Things Andinistas.  I have two of those...a civilian one in blue and the tactical version in coyote.  Those have ~5000 ci of capacity (pretty close to the Vectors), but they don't carry nearly as well as a Ute when loaded heavily, as that the Andinista was designed to be an alpine climbing pack.  I have a framesheet and stay system I devised for my Andinistas to provide additional structure for bigger loads.  I've thought about figuring out a way to attach the HPG Shoulder Harness and Prairie Belt to it.


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11/29/2015 11:21 AM
 
Interesting. I must have picked up incorrect information years ago, and never heard any differently.

The only Vector item I still have is a weather resistant pistol holster designed to fit on the various pack hip belts of the day.
 
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11/29/2015 11:49 AM
 

Buck W....I know we are drifting away from the intent of this thread...but Evan will likely chime in at some point with thoughts on big packs.  He has been a long time fan of the early Lowe Alpine and Dana Designs packs.  Both designs were really pretty far ahead of their time as long range, big load packs.


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11/29/2015 4:32 PM
 

This prompted me to update my "What I Carry" thread. With the load in the link (to include the winter extras - patagonia puffy pants, overmitts, hillsound trail crampons, another couple pair of socks), I can also carry 5-7 days of food. The entire cargo area consists of Ute, Heavy Recon KB, and Connor Pocket.

The late 80s and early 90s Lowe Alpine and DD packs weren't just ahead of their time -- they haven't really been surpassed. Gear got smaller, people got obsessed with light weight, and gear companies followed that market. There are improvements you can make to them (the Prairie Belt is better than anything ever put on a Lowe or Dana pack for example), but you aren't going to do much better.

In one form or another, HPG will have a larger volume pack available in 2016.


We are fortunate in this matter that your conduct will be your marker and, thus, your reputation. The conduct of others on this forum has been, and will continue to be, their marker, and thus, their reputation. In the west, a person invests in one's reputation carefully. - 112Papa
 
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11/29/2015 5:14 PM
 

Holy cow, Evan...that last sentence you wrote sounds mighty intriguing!

The more I think about it, I think I'm going to devote some time to doing a test winter load-out in two or maybe three configurations:

1) One with the Shepherd Stove, allowing a lighter sleeping bag, and lighter floor less shelter.

2) One without the Shepherd Stove, and opting for a warmer bag, double-wall shelter, and small cooking stove.

3) One "bare bones" winter load-out, with bivy bag / ground cloth / pad combo, warm but light sleep system (half bag / puffy parka, pants, booties / Mountain Serape), cooking stove.

For all versions, I'll base off of a 10 day trip, weigh the whole package, and get a feel for how each carries.  I'll also take photos of each option laid out and packed up.  

Now, when the larger volume HPG pack becomes a reality, that could establish a whole new edge to the envelope...as well as me manufacturing a reason to buy yet another HPG pack!


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11/29/2015 6:54 PM
 
I cant remember where I pick up all my "rule of thumb" stuff, but in general for me gear weight is comfort and food is duration. Its all armchair quarterbacking for me right now so grain a salt all around. This may be an interesting read:

https://backpackinglight.com/forums/t...

 
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11/29/2015 8:54 PM
 
alpendrms wrote:

I don't think any of the Lowes...the brothers Greg (founder of Lowe Alpine) and Jeff, and their cousin George Lowe III were SF guys.  Greg, with input from Jeff, actually developed the Vector packs for Special Forces, beginning with the Gen 1 model, which had a climbing / rappel harness in the hip belt.  Later, they came out with a heavier duty model, which was OD Cordura with a brown Cordura bottom.  I had both issued at different points in my SF career.

 

 I had one of those brown bottom Lowes.  It carried okay for a wrap around waistbelt, but it sucked compared to a Kifaru/HPG type belt.  I bought mine on Yadkin Rd at the Outpost. I had the riggers at Benning make me an H-harness for it so I could jump it.  All that webbing on it made it easy and safe to rig.  I had a LOCO as well, the first Lowe military pack.  I had a Lowe Expedition when I was stationed in AK.

You can pack 1.4-1.6# of food/day in above freezing temps if it is nearly all dry stuff.  Thru-hikers have worked out the math on this.  After 2-3wks of hiking this will start to increase by 20% or so.

 
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12/1/2015 9:13 AM
 
FWIW - I'm headed out for an overnighter right now. High today will be right around freezing, overnight low will be 4 or 5 degrees F. My pack weighs 47 lbs and my KB another 7 lbs. Pack has my bulkiest sleeping bag (zero degree synthetic TNF bag), trail crampons, overmitts, patagonia puffy pants, and a couple days of food. It sure was nice to shove the mittens and a spare HPG beanie into the stretchy back pocket on the Connor! On the other hand, a very compact 1.5lb shelter I'm testing and no wood stove so that saves volume. Pack and Connor are full, but there's only a WPB shell on the top. An 812 full of food would go on the top just fine and could easily hold another 7 days of food.

We are fortunate in this matter that your conduct will be your marker and, thus, your reputation. The conduct of others on this forum has been, and will continue to be, their marker, and thus, their reputation. In the west, a person invests in one's reputation carefully. - 112Papa
 
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12/1/2015 2:40 PM
 
It has been a long time since I got out for more than 4-5 days. In my mind figuring out the food is the biggest variable. It is interesting that 1.5lb a day is the goto weight for through hikers, but what do you mean it goes up by 20% after 3-4 weeks? Do you mean the amount of food needed to keep going? I have wonder what kicks the change over?

I want to say my pack for elk camp two years ago with 5 days of food was around 50lbs. I have some lighter gear now in a couple of places and would default to a heavier bag definitely, trying to go to light in that case bit me in the butt.

Another factor would be type of trip. If you are doing a basecamp then the bigger tent and stove gets the nod, but if I was moving everyday I would definitely opt for a smaller shelter and maybe go stoveless depending on how much I was moving. A wood stove takes a lot of work to keep feed. A smaller shelter is going to be warmer and also easier to place with less work. I guess I would default to a warmer sleeping bag and no stove or something like the trash wood stove you have if there was a lot of movement.

Co-Owner Hill People Gear "If anything goes wrong it will be a fight to the end, if your training is good enough, survival is there; if not nature claims its foreit." - Dougal Haston
 
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12/1/2015 3:06 PM
 
scothill wrote:
It has been a long time since I got out for more than 4-5 days. In my mind figuring out the food is the biggest variable. It is interesting that 1.5lb a day is the goto weight for through hikers, but what do you mean it goes up by 20% after 3-4 weeks? Do you mean the amount of food needed to keep going? I have wonder what kicks the change over?

 Your thyroid.  Walking 10-14mi/day is a catabolic activity for 99% of us.  Your body tolerates that weight loss for a while then ramps up your metabolism.  This is from thru-hikers, doing there thing in spring/summer.  In AK, on winter FTX's, we were ALWAYS hungry.

 The longest trip I've done was two weeks, with my daughter on the AT years ago, with one motel stay resteraunt meal and a re-supply.  That "hiker-hunger" thing was just starting to kick in for me at the end.

 
New Post
12/1/2015 3:59 PM
 
Take-a-knee wrote:
scothill wrote:
It has been a long time since I got out for more than 4-5 days. In my mind figuring out the food is the biggest variable. It is interesting that 1.5lb a day is the goto weight for through hikers, but what do you mean it goes up by 20% after 3-4 weeks? Do you mean the amount of food needed to keep going? I have wonder what kicks the change over?

 Your thyroid.  Walking 10-14mi/day is a catabolic activity for 99% of us.  Your body tolerates that weight loss for a while then ramps up your metabolism.  This is from thru-hikers, doing there thing in spring/summer.  In AK, on winter FTX's, we were ALWAYS hungry.

 The longest trip I've done was two weeks, with my daughter on the AT years ago, with one motel stay resteraunt meal and a re-supply.  That "hiker-hunger" thing was just starting to kick in for me at the end.

 

There's also the factor of what types of food you consume over long periods, as well.  When we trained at Gym Jones in SLC, one of the things we learned about and explored was regarding choosing long term sustainment foods for extended high activity level endeavors.  Gym Jones founder and former hard-core alpinist Mark Twight explained that calorically dense, high-fat (the good fats) content foods can help sustain one over long periods of time better than foods that are more carbohydrate rich.  Adequate levels of protein are, of course, maintained with this approach.  One reason it works well is that when the high-fat caloric dense foods are consumed, the feeling of fullness happens earlier, and stays with you longer.  The other benefit is that this also "teaches" your body to go after body fat as the preferred fuel source, of which most all of us have a nearly unlimited supply of.  This in turn helps save muscle tissue.  Also, these types of foods help one stay warmer in cold temps.  Mark and his climbing partners often planned their diets very meticulously, in order to have that type of fuel to sustain them during long alpine climbing expeditions in places where a quick resupply was out of the question.  Plus, they were doing their routes alpine style...as light and fast as possible.

I also remember a lecture I attended years ago put on by the American Alpine Club....the speaker was none other than Sir Chris Bonnington....the "Grand Old Man of British mountaineering".  He also espoused the virtues of high-fat diets over periods of time in the high Himalaya.  At over 20 grand in a snow cave, he said he would eat an entire stick of butter and it tasted just like a candy bar to him.  When it's really cold, and are going for several days in the mountains, the body craves fat.  

So, with this in mind, planning out the diet for long term backcountry travel can be designed to sustain oneself for the long haul, and still be able to perform at a decent level of activity.  Many of these kinds of factors went into the design of military rations.  Sometimes, they got it right and other times, not so much.  When I was on a Mountain ODA and we would be doing a Winter Warfare iteration or just team training, we tried to adhere to good diet planning for the trip as best we could, especially if we knew we had to be able to ski and climb well during it.  In the Swiss Army Mountain course, all of the Swiss guides ate this way, too.  High fat sausages, cheeses...things like that.  They were animals in the mountains.


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New Post
12/2/2015 9:29 AM
 
Great thread so far, this is the type of weather I do the bulk of my camping/backpacking as I hate ticks.

I have to breakout my Ute to see how my Winter load fits.
 
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12/2/2015 9:33 AM
 
Not to sidetrack this thread, butTraining at Gym Jones must have been an experience!
 
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12/2/2015 10:20 AM
 
It make sense that your metabolism kicks it up. Although, based on what Alpndrms wrote it makes me think that the 1.5lbs per day is really only good for summer trips as a rule of thumb as I would expect the foods he mentioned (sausage, cheese, butter) to be quit a bit heavier than just freeze dried stuff. That also kind of reinforces my though on through hikers. They generate a lot of great information, but you have to look at it in context and the amount of information is a double edge sword. From the standpoint that it may not apply to your trip as they are on a very specific trip, and that there is so much information that you can plan to the such a degree that murphy can easily sneak in. For instance the PNW had a very dry winter last winter and a very hot summer. I heard of several cases where folks used more water then planned and there wasn't water where they planned, which bit them on the butt. The other thing is thing is that their journey is finite and well known with a bunch of data. The whole goal is getting to the end, and I am always suspicious that poor choices are being made regarding gear and other food to make that happen. For instance, I have read several discussions where folks not only expected their pack to wear out, but planned on it and had spare packs in their drops along the trip to replace packs that were worn out, due to light materials and miles. They are making the gamble that the pack will get them to point B, knowing that it is not a matter of if, but when on the trip it fails. Personally, my thought is to have it last the trip and then some. As far as health, I worked with a guy in the FS who did the PCT in the early 90s. He was tall and slim, but was strong as hell. He didn't have the brute strength of some on the crew, but he packed a lot of power and could go all day, he was wirey. He related that he basically stopped eating meals, but instead just kept his mouth full of trail mix (homemade) and/or jerky. It was the only way that he could keep up his energy sufficiently to keep moving, plus it gave him a longer walking time. The other thing that he said that always stuck with me is that by the end of the trip he was in the worst shape of his life. All that was left was legs and lungs, everything else had atrophied to the point he was weak. I feel like he was having trouble lifting his pack, but the conversation was years ago, and that may just be my imagination. If you know where you journey ends then making the decision to sacrifice you health, at least as I see it, may make sense, but if you are on a trip where the route and factors aren't known to the level that they are on the through trails, so you can't plan everything to the nth degree, and know what you may have need of something besides legs and lungs it is a bad strategy, in my opinion. Perhaps he was the exception not the rule.

The three big factors I see for winter travel is 1) travel (assuming snow it is in general a lot more difficult if you are on foot, with a few exceptions like not fighting brush since you are over it) - that means that you are putting out more excretion to go a shorter distance, which in return requires more fuel. Factor 2) is the actual temperature and moisture. The difference between 30 degrees and 30 degress with just a 5 mile an hour breeze can be significant and life threatening very quickly as is dry at 30 degrees and wet at 30 degrees. That is a large reason we have gone back to synthetic base layers from merino as they seem to be only slightly cooler when moving and dry significantly faster providing for more warmth quicker. It also, to me, means that you need to error even more on the side of caution, for instance a warmer sleeping bag, or having extra layers and or dry ones (socks and a spare baselayer or even two). Also layers that perform well even if wet (i.e. not a down sleeping bag). All of which adds weight/bulk, and makes movement harder which again requires more energy expenditure. Factor 3) you not only need more food as you are burning more fuel, but based on what Alpndrms was saying heavier foods. One thing I do personally is keep a big flask of hot tea laced with eagle brand (preferably) to keep sipping on all day. The fluid intake amount is the same, but the container is heavier than the same size one I use in the summer, but it keeps my core warmer and also is constantly giving me a bit of fat. I am also carrying a container of Le Lechere that I don't in the summer. I am taking a weight hit to have those benefits. Come to think of it finding water for hydration is also more difficult in the winter as streams are frozen over and/or buried so melting snow becomes a requirement, and it can take a long time to melt enough snow in a small container.

Like a lot of things, experience will help you dial in what you need in the terms of gear and also food. Evan gets out a lot more than I do, so his setup and load is more dialed in than mine as he has a better understanding of what works for him. The point of this is that finding the balance of energy expenditure due to gear weight and travel requirements and energy replacement is the key. Having your load as light as possible to provide mobility and less energy expenditure, but at the same time having enough gear (mainly your sleep system as sleep is an energy replacement too) and food (weight) to maintain your energy levels will provide the answer.

The final issue is that your load needs to be small enough that it in and of itself is not a hazard to movement as underfoot conditions are even more conducive to an injury.

All that is a long winded way of saying right now I would have no issues setting out for 4-5 days, and after I laid everything out and packed and weighed it maybe more. After a few such trips I would expect that length to increase as I pared down and refined things, because I would expect to be able to dial in my caloric intake and gear needs better with each successive trip.


Alpndrms
Doesn't the military actually have different winter MREs than summer? I would have to go check, but my memory is the ones that Kurt gave us, were specifically winter MREs with more calories and fat. It would be interesting to see what the difference in included calories is, and if there is a difference in meal types.

Co-Owner Hill People Gear "If anything goes wrong it will be a fight to the end, if your training is good enough, survival is there; if not nature claims its foreit." - Dougal Haston
 
New Post
12/2/2015 11:02 AM
 
Scot, i think you've laid out some really good thoughts about this whole thread.  One thing that jogged my memory from years past when our 10th Group ODA was teaching the SF Mountain Master Trainer Course (based out of Fort Carson, with forays into the 13'ers and 14'ers) was that we always noticed about guys from the other Groups that attended the course, that came from lower and warmer locations like Bragg in NC or Cambell in KY...the ones that always seemed to be doing best energy-wise on the long approaches into the high mountains (acclimatization to altitude not withstanding) were the ones that almost constantly were munching on some type of trail snack...be it gorp, jerky, hard candy, etc.  Others here on the HPG forum probably know this to be true, as well.  So the part in your post about the lean, wiry guy that always ate snacks throughout the day to keep his energy levels up was smart to do that!  A heckuva lot of former soldiers I know (me included) would often dedicate a pouch on our LBE to "pogey bait" storage.  On patrols that went over an entire night and into the next day, this really keeps you firing on all 8 cylinders...especially when you aren't stopping for any real breaks.
kept his mouth full of trail mix (homemade) and/or jerky .....that makes a lot of sense, to me for long haul / long duration backcountry trips.

Doesn't the military actually have different winter MREs than summer? I woul have to go check, but my memory is the ones that Kurt gave us, were specifically winter MREs with more calories and fat. It would be interesting to see what the difference in included calories is, and if there is a difference in meal types. ...absolutely.

The military winter MREs are very calorie packed and pretty good tasting, but they are heavier.  We used a lot of them on the Mountain team I was on.  We pretty much lived off of them in Bosnia, too.  We were based in a place called Ugljevik, a Serb area.  It was really cold when we were there and those winter rats really helped.  Especially since the local food was nasty and would have resulted in the whole team coming down with food poisoning had we have eaten it.  I haven't explored it, but I am willing to bet that the winter MREs are higher in caloric and fat content than the other MREs.


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